Second Dorian Gray Discussion
Share additional comments about today's second Dorian discussion here.
posted by mferrill | 12:32 PM
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6 Comments:
I was gone during the discussion, so I apologize if I repeat anything previously stated. These chapters made my dislike Dorian more than before and see Henry on a wider scale. Dorian feel in love with the characters that Sibyl played, and expected that to be enough to build a marriage on; he was unpleasantly hit when he found that she isn’t always going to be those perfect characters of history. Then with out so much as goodbye he leaves her and feels sorry for himself. He is selfish and naive and can not even blame this on Lord Henry’s crude comments. Dorian is so self centered that the only reason he loved this girl was because she played famous women of history and by being with her he felt more important on a larger scale of life. When we see Henry with his aunt and all the famous people, it is made clear that he is not all that different than those around him. He is a product of his environment and just has the ability to take it a step future and influence those around him. His outlook on life though is simply the molding of his family and friends. When they are at the play, one would expect more dignity and respect than what they gave the performance.
I agree with Kaitlin that the more I read the less and less I like Dorian Gray. He sees too much in himself and rides through life thinking that because he is beautiful, people will like him. At the beginning of the novel he is very much untouched. Because of this, both Basil and Lord Henry seek to change him to their will and Dorian simply takes in their influences, which make him an even more annoying character. Dorian seems too ashamed to show the world who he truly is and furthermore he takes whatever actions he can to people from finding out who he really is. Because of Dorian is so skiddish of himself, he readily takes in Lord Henry's words.He has a choice, but he chooses to be taken by other peoples words. He is corrupted through and through and evil because he does not regret his actions. It took looking into a picture to find any reflection of evil within himself. Whether what he saw in the painting was his imagination or not, he is more amoral because of it. The worst part of his sense of evil is that he does not realize his wrongs. His picture grows uglier and uglier with time and he loves that he stays beautiful because he believes that beauty is all that matters. However, I think that the picture is truly reflecting how he is growing uglier and uglier on the inside. And, since what is inside doesn't matter to him, he can simply hide within his beauty. Likewise, he hides the picture in a room that only he has acecess too to and can examine in private. Most frusterating of all is thought he hates the picture that reflects himself, he still loves himself.
I did not get into the fishbowl discussion we had a few days ago, however I felt a important point was worth sharing. I noticed that we talked about the maturity of Dorian Gray, especially in regards to Lord Henry. It was brought up that he progresses from infantile in the opening scene to submissive throughout the beginning of the book. On this I agree completely but also find it relevant to note that even Lord Henry sees him this as immature. Lord Henry has made his into a premature individual that has no real thought other than to listen to others. On page 57 of the text Lord Henry states this plainly with, “Yes, the lad (Dorian Gray) was premature. He was gathering harvest while it was yet spring. The pulse and passion of youth were in him, but he was becoming self-conscious. It was delightful to watch him.” Therefore only providing more evidence that Dorian has not matured properly by any means, he indeed is both immature as we would put it and premature as Lord Henry would state. He is a fairly impressionable individual one manipulated easily by Lord Henry, like some sort of experiment.
The question/statement was brought up that Lord Henry does not believe what he says. One important thing to note about Lord Henry is that he speaks for two purposes. One is to entertain and the other is to influence. Page 42 to 43 show an example of Lord Henry talking for entertainment. He took the idea that committing the sins of ones youth allows you to regain your youthful feel and “played with the idea and grew wistful; tossed it into the air and transformed it; let it escape and recapture it; made it iridescent with fancy, and winged it with paradox…” (42). When asked by Mr. Erskine if he meant all he said, Lord Henry replied, “I quite forget what I said…” (43). Lord Henry possibly did remember what he said, but uses this excuse to say he really did not care what he was saying and was just speaking for enjoyment. Although he might have been influencing the Duchess or Dorian, the primary purpose was to entertain. In contrast, after Lord Henry says that Dorian should love Sibyl for six months and then find another love to adore, Basil reacts in horror and rebukes Henry saying he did not mean a thing he said. However, Lord Henry replies: “The reason we all like to think so well of others is that we are all afraid of ourselves. The basis of optimism is sheer terror. We think that we are generous because we credit our neighbor with the possession of those virtues that are likely to be a benefit to us. We praise the banker that we may overdraw our account, and find good qualities in the highwayman in hope that he may spare our pockets. I mean everything that I have said. I have the greatest contempt for optimism. As for a spoiled life, no life is spoiled but one whose growth is arrested. If you want to mar a nature, you have merely to reform it. As for marriage, of course that would be silly, but there are other and more interesting bonds between men and women. I will certainly encourage them. They have the charm of being fashionable” (72-73). When Henry talks to Dorian or anyone else his is trying to influence, he purposefully says his thoughts and injects ideology into his speech. He means to change the life he is talking to and mold the clay or paint the blank canvas that is in front of him. Lord Henry always speaks with a purpose. When entertaining, he does not pay attention to what he is saying. When he is influencing, he believes every word coming out of his mouth and is ready to observe its affect on a human life.
The question was brought up about Lord Henry and why he does not act on his own philosophies. Henry interestingly compares himself to a scientist: “He had been always enthralled by the methods of natural science, but the ordinary subject matter of that science had seemed to him trivial and of no import. And so he had begun by vivisecting himself, as he had ended by vivisecting others. Human life—that appeared to him the one thing worth investigating” (56). Vivisecting is the process of dissecting and animal while it is still alive. So instead of a scalpel and forceps, Lord Henry uses his words and philosophies to vivisect human beings. As most scientist, he does not test his theories on himself, but rather has an experiment with which he works and observes to prove or disprove his theories. This job Lord Henry has given himself provides for him his passion for living live and the drive to influence others. In this way, Lord Henry can “never say a moral thing but never do an immoral thing” without becoming entrenched in the evils of his own sayings and remain an interested observer of life. With the power of words, he controls the human experiment around him.
After posting an answer to two statements I wish to pose a question/ topic that has not really been touched upon. Lord Henry holds a degrading view of America and women. On page 31, Lord Henry talks about the “dry goods” of America as well as the home of all the bad Americans when they die. He holds that women are a mere “decorative sex… never have anything to say, but they say it charmingly… and represent the triumph of matter over mind” (47). Are any of these characteristics true and do they apply today? How do these criticisms characterize Lord Henry and how does Lord Henry possibly point to Oscar Wilde’s views?
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