Pride and Prejudice Second Discussion Assignment
Please post a question, comment, or significant quotation about the second assigned reading of Pride and Prejudice by Monday, April 14th. Also comment on one other post by Tuesday, April 15th.
posted by mferrill | 3:40 PM
33 Comments:
Hello everybody!
The question I have concerns Mr. Darcy’s sister, Georgiana. Before Elizabeth met her, Miss Darcy seemed to somewhat be presented as being just as proud and snobbish as her brother. Now we know that she is just extremely shy and her brother is actually considerate. But why do you think that she is this way, seemingly unconfident of herself and her actions? Is it because she was too sheltered by Mr. Darcy and Colonel Fitzwilliam since being placed under their guardianship? Or did Mr. Wickham’s manipulation of her innocent heart destroy her of being too open towards others?
Although Lydia was wrong about running away with Wickham, does she foresee the results of her actions and how much grief it will cause her family? Is she blissfully ignorant, or does she want attention so much that she is willing to go to any lengths to receive it—even eloping—no matter what the results are?
My question is a matter of technicality. On page 266 and a few other pages, the matter of money given to Wickham for marrying Lydia is addressed. I don't understand the concept of the "annual" given to him and whatnot. Any comments or want to enlighten me a bit more on this subject?
Or, think about this one. Wickham has been seen as a great guy before this whole marriage incident by everyone at the parties and in town...what is Austen trying to depict about the society through Wickham's character?
Here is my question-
When Elizabeth and the Gardiners are visiting Pemberly, they end up meeting Mr. Darcy. He is not nearly as proud as usual. The Gardiners are impressed by him, and don't believe him to be at all proud. My question is this: Do you think that Mr. Darcy is really trying to get rid of his pride to better himself, or does he only want to impress Elizabeth and her family? Or is it both?
I was wondering what everyone thought about Mr. Darcy's actions towards Mr. Wickham and his inheritance. Does Darcy really feel that Mr. Wickham doesn't deserve the money becuase he is a vain and conceited person, or is it truthfully becuase he was envious of the relationship between Wickham and his father?
My opinions towards Darcy’s character seem to keep changing. When Elizabeth ran into him at Pemberly, he was so kind and well-mannered. I was wondering if this is how he normally acts on an everyday basis or if he is putting on this façade for Elizabeth. He was so cold and prideful when we previously saw him throughout the novel and I wonder which side of Darcy is an act. It could possibly be that both of these sides are the real Darcy but then why the so sudden change? Could it have to do with the fact that he is at his home instead of off in the country where he has no friends or acquaintances or could it be that he is more comfortable exposing his caring side to Elizabeth?
I was wondering if anyone liked the part where Mr. Darcy proposes to Elizabeth. It’s one of my favorite parts. I just loved the written complexity of the passage and how they were basically insulting one another in the most elegant way I have ever read. I have one question though. Did Mr. Darcy really think Elizabeth would accept his proposal?
I would like to respond to Jessica's comment and add a question of my own that builds onto hers. My comment/question is that when Austen characterizes Miss Darcy as shy and quiet is she also characterizing Darcy and revealing his most important trait that Elizabeth refuses to see? If so then to answer your response Jessica, I see Darcy as a shy person who seems proud because of his inability to converse with others that he does not know. I see this being one of the reasons it appears he has two sides, and I agree that his conformability with Elizabeth is probably a major reason his actions have "changed" when he is around her.
On a different topic… I was surprised when we met Lady Catherine’s character because she was much more self- centered and more talkative than I pictured her based on Mr. Collin’s and Charlotte’s descriptions of her. I am wondering if Austen deliberately did this to reinforce Mr. Collins exaggeration of the truth. Also I kind of see some similarities between Lady Catherine and Elizabeth, not many, but they both seem to not be intimidated by men and they see themselves as equals to men, unlike Elizabeth’s sisters and mom. Does this have any significance when it comes to how they get along with Darcy? If so, why is Elizabeth denying how she feels about him at this point?
I don't know much about Jane Austen's life; how does the novel relate to her experiences (if at all), and do you think that there is any importance in the fact that Austen named the oldest Bennet daughter after herself?
Why on earth did Mr. Bennett let Lydia go with the officers? Isn't that against all social customs? Does he care at all about Lydia? (Sorry that was more than one question...) Anyways, I'm just curious as to what you guys think, and what Austen is possibly trying to say about Mr. Bennett in this scenario.
I love watching Elizabeth's feelings for Mr. Darcy slowly change as the plot progresses. To me, the relationship between them is even more powerful because Austen never directly addresses their love. (Does the fact that Austen never married have anything to do with this?) Both movie versions change this, making the attraction between Lizzy and Darcy more noticeable, and adding dialogue that emphasizes it.
Does anyone else like Austen's indirect references, or do you think it merely skirts around a topic Austen felt uncomfortable addressing?
tristin posting :)
I am a still a little bit unclear as to what Jane Austen is satirizing in this section, and the rest of the book. Are there any specific passages that can point out her criticism? I understand her wit, irony, and humor, but I cannot specifically find her target or any specific examples.
I've been trying to figure out why Elizabeth didn't decide just to tell Jane the truth about Mr. Bingley's supposed lack of affects. Why not let her know that Bingley actually did love her so that she might pursue him? Elizabeth thinks to herself that "nothing but a perfect understanding between the parties could justify her in throwing off this last encumbrance of mystery." This is saying that Elizabeth doesn't wish to further complicate things and wants instead to make sure that both Jane and Bingley understood the situation in full. But this doesn't seem like a very good reason for Elizabeth to withhold news of that magnitude. What good does she think would come of holding this back from Jane?
I would like to address the question posted by "anoel" about Mr. Darcy's pirde. He definitely seems less prideful at Pemberley but I believe this is because he is consumed with his love for Lizzy. I believe Mr. Darcy has been prideful through the book,however, i see his pride more as dignified than pompous. Darcy, in my opinion, is a classy and articulate guy! ( I would love to find a guy that spoke to me the way he does to Lizzy! Ow, ow!!!) Anyway, he could be trying to impress the family on the surface because any guy in love is going to try to impress to some degree, but I think he has been humbled through Elizabeth's rejection and has truly grown through it. His pride has been shaken but his dignity remains!!!
To "graciem" I also felt that letting Lydia leave was a big mistake and fairly surprising. However, I saw it as Austen revealing the true nature of her family even farther. It seems to emphasis Mrs. Bennet's complete lack of social class, and her total ignorance to her families disgrace from her social misconduct. This emphasis is significant in foreshadowing the shame to come, when Lydia runs away with Mr. Wickham.
Regarding Amanda's question and Bri's comment, I have a different view of things, though I may be mistaken. While visiting Pemberly, the maid shows Elizabeth and the Gardiners all of the rooms and throughout their discourse, the maid consistently praises Darcy and his personality. I suppose that since she has taken care of him and his home from his youth she may either be slanted in her opinion of him, or know him to an extent that neither the reader or Elizabeth can. Perhaps Elizabeth, along with the reader has just mistaken shyness for pride, and Darcy was really a great guy all along. Just a thought.
I would like to respond to Amanda's question as well. I agree a little with Bri and with Erin, and think that Austen deliberately shows Darcy to the reader (as he is transforming in front of Elizabeth) in a different light. After her prejudices were cleared up by his letter, it seems as though he is both confident to be himself (and mostly give up his prideful facade) and that Elizabeth is finally realizing how great a man he actually is. The issue of pride is likewise transformed: "She [Elizabeth] was proud of him - proud that in a cause of compassion and honour he had been able to get the better of himself" (pg 304). How else do you think Austen explores the complex nature of "pride" and "prejudice" ?
In response to Emily’s question, I do think that Austen dances around the topic of relationships in this novel but not because she necessarily felt uncomfortable. I agree that the less direct way in which she addresses a relationship and how the characters change during the novel, does make the love connection seem much stronger and more interesting. Because of this, I don’t think she was avoiding certain subjects, instead I feel like she knew the reader would create an after story, if that is such a thing, and leaving room for interpretation and imagination, makes the love between these characters very realistic and intriguing.
In response to anoel's question regarding the civility of Mr. Darcy when met at Pemberley; I would have to say that it isn't any of the options you described. I think that his pride was somewhat overthrown by Elizabeth's original refusal, his shock at seeing her out of the blue overthrew him, and he was acting in the general civility that he had been elsewhere known for. I don't think he is trying to impress anyone really... but he does sincerely want his sister to be impressed by Elizabeth, which just goes to demonstrate on of the many facets of his character we have not yet been privy to. One of the many reasons why Austen is one of the better known and better loved of authors of Classical English Literature.
In response to graciem, I was very surprised as well when Mr. Bennett allowed Lydia to go visit the officers, because one would immediately think that her embarrassing forwardness towards men would bring shame to the Bennett family name. But the reason that I think Mr. Bennett allowed it was because people would then be able to truly differentiate the five Bennett daughters and not clump them and their actions as a result, together in reference. This may be what it takes to let the public know that Elizabeth and Jane are actually sensible girls, and the others are just airheads! Of course, it is still “sacrificing” the family name to some degree, but it is kind of like you win some, you lose some. What is going to “pay off” in the long-run is worth the risk.
I’d like to comment on what anoel said. I think it is both. Mr. Darcy has, by now, realized how proud he was and the errors of his ways. He is in part attempting to change this and show how open and generous he can be. He also does want to impress her and her family because he still loves her. He wants to make a good impression not only on her, but also on her family in case she changes her mind and decides to marry him.
In response to Jessica K's question, I think that is a very interesting point. It seems strange to me how Mr. Darcy acts so differently when Elizabeth meets him in the country from her aquaintance with him in her town. I think that Elizabth's accusations towards Mr. Darcy startled him, and I think that he didnt realize how cold and unfriendly he was percieved by her and others. I don't think that Darcy's pride had everything to do with the way he acted in the beginning of the novel. He explains to Elizabeth that he doesn't have the ability to converse easily with others. I believe that not only becuase Darcy loves Elizabeth, but because he wants to improve his character for her, this is why he attempts to converse and be more social with people in front of Elizabeth when he meets her next.
I am confused concerning the character of Mrs. Gardiner. At the beginning of the second section she "recollected having heard Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy formerly spoken of as a very proud, ill-natured boy". What confuses me is Mrs. Gardiner later presents herself to be a very sensible laby that would not fall to the gossip and assumptions of the society around her. Why would Jane Austen have her recall what is not true? Is this supposed to help aid her satire?
I recently watched a movie about Jane Austen. I believe it is call becoming Jane. In response to erin, this movie I watched showed many similarities to Pride and Prejudice. I do not know how accurate this source is but in the movie she attempts to runaway with a man that she cannot possible marry in civil society. I thought it was interesting that Jane chose Lydia to runaway with Whickham. It makes me feel unclear of how Austen feels about marriage and love and if they can exist together.
I would like to respond to Emily's question and Bessie's response. I understand Emily's connection to Jane Austen's life and that she never got married, but I do not believe that this influences her in the way Emily questions, by "skirting around topics that she is uncomfortable with." Topics such as love and marriage are primarily her focus in both criticism and theme. That fact that she did not marry actually reinforces her ideas in the novel that one should marry for love. I also think that Emily’s reference to the movies is really interesting. The movies have such a hard time captivating the hidden love between Darcy and Elizabeth. I agree with Emily—there is nothing like Austen’s original work.
I actually disagree with some of the points brought up in response to Emily's question as to Austen's indirect references to love and affection. I do agree with Bessie, in that the lack of specific detail allows for the situations to be even more romantic in the reader's mind. But I don't think that Austen did this just to allow for her readers to interpret the relationship. She had a near total lack of love or intimacy in her life, and I believe that when writing the scenes emphasizing attraction, she might have realized that any attempt she might have made would have come off as contrived. It would be hard to write about and replicate the powerful emotions accompanied by love if she had never felt them herself.
I personally love the indirect references, because it allows me to fill in the rest of the scene exactly as I think it should be. By not examining every inflection of word, every touch of body language, Austen makes the budding attraction much more personal to us.
In response to Melanie's question:
I think Elizabeth is afraid of hurting Jane even more than she was hurt before. Elizabeth is dealing with her own conflicting emotions regarding her feelings for Darcy, and I don't know if she trusts her judgment enough to determine if Bingley is still in love with Jane. Elizabeth already found herself in the wrong regarding Darcy's character, and her belief in her "unbiased observation" has been shaken. She may be afraid of being wrong once again, and destroying Jane's happiness.
It also seems that the atmosphere surrounding the Bennet family, even before news of Lydia's elopement reaches them, is rather unsettled. Perhaps Elizabeth senses this and feels it isn't the right time for her to tell Jane about Bingley.
Sara here :] Sorry, Mrs. Ferrill, I am a bit late on my first post.
I would like to comment on how much I loved reading the part of the book where Darcy gives Elizabeth the letter the day after his proposal. I adored this part so much because Austen captures the human nature perfectly within Elizabeth's head. As she describes how Elizabeth read the letter so fast, she forgot the sentence right after she read it! The way Austen writes exemplifies Elizabeth's internal struggle about Darcy with such poise. No writer can capture the spirit of a stubborn girl so well. :]
Now my next response, hehe.
Okay, well after reading Ally's comment and question about the proposal, I thought I would input my opinion.
I do think Darcy thought that Elizabeth would accept him but it is ironic because the part of her character he fell in love with is the same, stubborn part that refused him in his proposal. In a way, Darcy is a proud man who thinks that all he wants is within reach, yet Elizabeth does not play this game.
It's like he expected her to accept but because she did not, he is further enthralled by her, aww isn't it wonderful?
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In response to Allyx, I loved the part of the novel where Darcy proposes to Elizabeth. What an easy question! :)
In response to the question posed by Teresa, I think that Georgiana is shy because she has been used and duped by Wickham. I have seen this sheltered, incredibly shy attitude in girls I know. All of them have a reason for keeping their true selves from others, whether they have been betrayed by a lover or a friend. I think that if Miss. Darcy was sheltered, she would be more outgoing because she would have never been exposed to the quick judgement of her society; therefore she wouldn't have come up with a plan (silence) to deflect this judgement.
In response to Allyx's question, I think Mr. Darcy definitely expected Elizabeth to accept his proposal. At this point in the novel Mr. Darcy still appears a reserved and shy character so if he gathered enough courage to tell Elizabeth he loved her, then he could only expect her to accept his proposal. If Mr. Darcy excpected anything less than a positive reastion, he would not have asked because why would he want to be rejected? However, here I come in conflict with his pride. Like Sara said, Mr. Darcy seems to think he can get whatever he wants. He expected Elizabeth to take his hand because he finally accepted his own love for her. And while I do not think this is Mr. Darcy's only motive, I can not think of another reason why he would propose. Any opinions?
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